I have found that I prefer the 9mm as an EDC concealed carry. It depends where they get hit. My father was hit in the arm with a .50 bmg round during the Falklands war and it took his arm off from below the el We had a good chuckle out of that one. That changed for me Dec of 2017. So Marines are now trained to simply kill them. Desert Eagle Ammo Type: .45 ACP. Do Not Sell My Personal Information. I like to study real world crime stats and self-defense incidents; and study hundreds of shootings every year. Before he did this there was almost as many different firearms within the department as deputies. WebThe 45 will but them down and bleed them out real quick with a gut shot, the 9mm will have them flopping around and may not stop them from firing back, also from the pools of blood near the bodies the 45 does more damage. If you shoot someone through the skull with a .22 rimfire and penetrate their brain, you will almost certainly immediately incapacitate them. Shooting light steel target that doesnt allow penetration at all vs a human body is a little bit different. Wondering if these Marine special operators are not only allowed but required to carry exclusively the 15-round Glock 19, why not the slightly larger and higher capacity Glock 17? Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. Cant get into why I know this but but Im retired from the Government. It was modified to accept a detachable magazine and equipped with a folding stock. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase Creatine The lack of penetration, compared to a 9mm ,from a 45 can be eliminated by using a long barrel , 5+, and +P rounds. But this doesnt mean that a 22 rimfire is the best caliber or even a good choice for head shots. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. Either will get the job done for protection. Fortunately or unfortunately I did shoot other humans with a 45 as close as 4 feet. That has been the best comment so far. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. Wilderness Arena Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Open the tools menu in your browser. When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The two most important factors to consider, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavitation. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto), there are some projectiles that have a high likelihood of success for officers (i.e., all three are very effective). People like the OP of the TIFU have been shot right above their heart and lungs, with .223 and despite a nasty, nasty exit wound and the shot placement, walked it off. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. Not to kill but enough to let us get to our guys or a firearms. Indeed, if 9mm used the same grain of bullet, the ft/lb and velocities are near-identical. I am a classic ). I have used the 1911 govt. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. A 1911 in 9MM? Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing significant and potentially lethal blood loss. Ruger already dominates the American handgun market, and they are very profitable, so it may not have been worth it to them. I sort of like the Canik TP9v2, with Browning BXP xpoint 147 gr load. Your shots have to count. The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . Died instantly. 15 round mag of 9mm FMJ unless you hit the heart better plan on using 3 to 5 rounds to stop the person. I am sure the debate will go on till the last Cockroach dies . WebYes, definitely. Thats what I pack in the deep woods. Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. This accurately stuff doesnt make too much sense when you have a bonsai charge advancing on you and your rifle was not available. The issue is the 9mm one penetrated which resulted in through and through shots. The penetration of various materials can be of great assistance in the investigation of shooting incidents. .45 ACP is not the one-shot-stopping hammer that some people think it is. They argue that the 9mm round has more penetrating power because the round faces less air resistance on its nose as it flies through the air. What kind of insane non-scientific reasoning is this? Everything from grip, shooting stance, limp wrist-ing and recoil spring pressure was examined. By the way. The door has been opened and shut for good on John M. Browning's classic 1911 design. ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. Ballistics engineers try to balance speed, mass, and surface area to make the most effective round possible. All rights reserved. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! It is also logical to assume that when the larger round enters a major body organ, the negative impact upon that organ will be more significant. There are far too many different considerations and circumstances between self-defense necessities and military/LE necessities to list in a comment section; but theyre important distinctions. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. Note that buying a handgun for personal protection is not an abstract desire. Physiology, Acid Base Balance Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. Great article by the way. Then they changed to .40S&W (once they realized how difficult it was for some agents to handle). Glocks are cheap and reliable. When the. This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. Their explanation (other than increasing ammo capacity): bullet technology has come a long way since 1986. I spend a great deal of time on the range. I carry a 9 as one of my CCW, a Sig P938. Japanese quail chicks in a studythe results In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62. can weigh in at 125 grains. That much is true. In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. Factors like these led to the military adopting the Colt .45 ACP pistol as its standard sidearm in 1911. .45 ACP vs 9mm: Which Is Better? - Gun Digest While psychological factors incapacitate more assailants than physiological factors, they are also the primary reason for a failure to incapacitate. As mentioned in the article, the terminal ballistics of the modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round but that is with modern 9mm JHP ammo. Even after suffering multiple 9mm gunshot wounds, victims are capable of fleeing considerable distances. Also, do you love this debate on the various handgun calibers? WebAnswer (1 of 16): It does vary, but most of the time a 5.56mm rifle cartridge will have much more destructive potential than a .45 caliber pistol load does. You have either been there, done that or you are a very common sense person. Gimme a break! Involved in a shooting with my partner. Ask the Mafia. One of the techniques used by several mob hit men was to use a .22 caliber pistol placed in the soft spot behind and slightly belo Guy KEPT COMING and managed to shoot back twice. Ive carried about every size round in my 71+ years of which 36 was an LEO. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. Explore. At 70, I choose to go small & straight! The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. With those factors in mind, Id prefer one of the calibers most likely to immediately incapacitate and prevent return fire. I carried an issue 45. But a .45/70 at 1597 fps equals a .270 Win at 3200 fps ballistically on impact and follow through. People have died from hitting their head just right after slipping at their desk,kitchen. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter (i.e., recoil) and he too would be knocked down. And let us not forget the adrenaline factor. and that the data you submit is exempt from Do Not Sell My Personal Information requests. One other thought dont ever modify the trigger on your self-defensive gun if you ever have to use it in those situations and lawyer finds that out he will own everything you have. Guns dont kill people. laugh at the forensic expert and 2.) The .22, meanwhile. As stated before, this article isnt intended to solve the stopping power debate, but only to discuss the issues it involves. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! I don't know about you, but my .45's seem to be plenty accurate, certainly as precise as any of my 9mm pistols. The kidneys separate this material from the blood. There were no exit wounds. I also own both my fathers series 70 .45 (very accurate, low recoil due to mass, gunsmith tuned trigger that feels like butter, and extra fat grips) And a Kahr K40 (small, easy to conceal, but has a HORRENDOUS trigger pull and snappy recoil). Of the nearly 250 million guns owned by Americans at that time, somewhere between 40 and 50 million of them were handguns. Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. Very smart Chris ! But the guy kept on coming. I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. The FBI just did the same thing. What will each round acco. Reddit This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. No regrets. Thats why were here right? Shot placement rules. My Kimber .45 is one of my favorite pistols EVER, but its heavy and only has 8 rounds. The better the bullet and the shot placement of an officer, the more likely the officer will go home after a shooting. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. Whether it hits the shoulder, the leg, arm, hip, whatever. Hydrostatic shock document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. Out charges the male mental with a screw driver in his hand. But with the way things are going today I decided it was time, so I just bought S&W M&P 9 Shield. For two decades, MARSOC operators have been allowed to carry custom-built Colt 1911s chambered in .45ACP. It has been reported by Heritage about how there are a number of personal protection gun uses that make the news in any given month, but are given a tiny fraction of the attention that mass shooters and other violent gun criminals receive. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. Poor light and unplanned obstacles are common in real-life self-defense scenarios. Practice thats all it takes. I am not sure why Ruger did not enter a weapon into the competition (like the new American pistol), but it could be that they looked at the RFP and made a determination that for some reason their pistols didnt fit the bill, or perhaps they decided it wasnt worth it. My neighbor saw that the guy was afraid of the thing and couldnt get back on target after the 1st shot due to the recoil and his flinching with every shot. If I remember my undergraduate physics, acceleration is defined as a change in velocity or a change in vector. 12 shots fired. Every round has its purpose. All this is much different than the British Armys approach to marching headfirst into conflict, taking aim and firing. The bear was shot in the head through the screen.it was a one shot stop but needed another round to finish him off. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. The role of the gun industry in Americas gun violence epidemic. Second Media Inc., 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. George. Unless they needed concealablity. Shot placement is the deciding factor. But good luck with and please enjoy the new Glock! Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 450 ft/s will burst a human eye. Project: Aftermath Wiki. But if stopping power is your only indicator of success in battle, then I suggest a WWII 16 inch navy rifle same as the Battleship Missouri ! The reason is recoil. So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? 25 yard 1.52 off hand 5 rnd groups on the nose. And fyi, if you are an expert at shooting a needle into peoples medulla, caliber is irrelevant until the large size becomes combersome. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. The beautiful country in south east Asia. The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. I cant compare to 9mm but I still want to carry 45acp. I carry a 9mm myself, and train to rapid fire. I am sorry for your incounter. 45 muzzle velocity is 500 feet per second and the 9mil is 1500 fps. Kimber 1911 Rapide Dawn .45 ACP Pistol $ 1649 99 1649 dollars 99 cents. Q-do you think your mind will change about +P in a 45 cal? The human body experiences four main types of acid-based disorders: metabolic acidosis, metabolic alkalosis, respiratory acidosis, and respiratory alkalosis. I would love to get my hands on the data and map it by cartridge. Never had a jam up firing many different kinds of ammo. 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. The test results disclosed that the .45 round displaced an average of 4.22 cubic inches of tissue, the 10mm round 4.11 cubic inches and the 9mm round 2.82 cubic inches. But a high-muzzle weapon shatters that bone into hundreds of microscopic pieces, in a way that cannot be repaired. Where the human component is a significant factor thats been deleted from so many test results. I have the perfect picture for this: Those pins stayed in place for 18 months while the bone knit. It is a poor idea to keep your finger inside the Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. And thats hardly re-enacting a self defense scenario. However, others say that the lowly .22 LR has the best stopping power, since it stays in the targets body and bounces around, shredding arteries and punching holes in internal organs. None used a big cal but all targets were immediately incapacitated and all targets were within 1foot to 20 feet away. How many decades are we going to have this debate? But thats a subject for another article. , Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. He sure has screwed us military retires over the last several years! 45 Acp Damage Human Body Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and more of those 9mm and larger. The 45 ACP is my choice of a Heavy Hitter. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? But with my Kimber Colt 45 I hit first shot no problem and it left that watermellon in disaster. arrow moving at what velocity.200 feet per second? Hit your enemy Quickly and Hes Dead. Its disturbing to me that we give up performance for comfort. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. .45 ACP 10 Round Magazine mobility debuff removed, and .45 ACP 17 Round Magazine mobility increased from 96% to 98%. We can argue 9 vs 45. Oh and dont give me the garbage about 9mm has come a long way since its inception. Many do not discover the gun thats right for them as easily as you have (if they ever do)! Black Talon With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. If I think it can get that bad where Im going. The tests resulted in the selection in 1989 of the 10mm bullet as the most effective and accurate round for FBI agents to carry. 9mm and 45 ACP are popular for all the reasons listed above. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. The pistol with speed loaders will get me to the riffels then game over if not over yet. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. The 5 Most Controversial Handgun Rounds While, I understand that budgetary issues are a factor they should not come before the safety of the officer pr soldier. With the 45 2 at most. I can shoot consistently accurately. A good hit from either will wreck an adversarys day . I shot Master for a while. Oh, and Sgt. And other trauma surgeons are on record as saying that they cannot tell the difference between wounds caused by 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. It is all in the throat (Leade) and where the bullet contacts the rifling. What type of bullet is being fired? All three shots vital to heart and lungs. We souped up the 38 special to produce it .The 10 Auto was dumb ed down to create the 40sw. and departments. I have most of the makers revolver & simi-auto, in most of the major calibers. In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. He carries a nine personally currently because of the round capacity but in combat 45. They are both capable of inflicting mortal wounds far beyond practical range. This is pretty interesting BTW https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/. If youre being attacked or in the process of deterring an oncoming attack, fear can have an affect. Shot placement was nearly identical. This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. The pool of cartridges in the study are grouped which makes the data integrity less reliable but each group of larger calibers exhibit significant percentage better lethality. Stay safe everyone, JP, first of all, Im really sorry you had to go through that. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. The general plan of attack for officers is to use some weapon other than a handgun. Using the cone attack gives you a low ammo condition that imposes disadvantage on attack rolls until you reload, and you have 2 reloads per day. You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive Talk to someone that has been shot with a 9mm FMJ round and ask them what it feels like and contrast that to someone that has been shot with a 45 ACP FMJ round. First off, its important to understand what the term refers to. A lot. .4570, .454 Casull and .460 Super Mag are all tremendously powerful. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet requires a minimum of 250 ft/s velocity to penetrate fresh human skin. For me I have a 9mm that is concealable as well as my AR15 223 and like some of the others on here I would rather us my 15. So its purpose is based on design. Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. I thought I would never own a 9 mm. You're Dead: 5 Deadliest Bullets In The World They're just as important as the gun that fires them. Im no expert but i know how it feels to be in a shoot out, first of all when it goes down you better have some kind of firearm i dont care if its a P shooter, 2nd the person will be placed in a situation where they will have to make a business decision when here a pop coming from you. I also read a recent article about a fishing guide who shot and killed a grizzly bear with a 147gr, 9mm from a S&W 3913. Center Mass/head shots are guaranteed kills. The Ruger SR1911 is comfortable for some reason and I have considered getting one from time to time. But it is no longer valid against todays terrorists, and the mindset they fight with. That said a handgun is only used to get to a bigger firearm..it was never ment to be used in longer than 30 meter engagements. Really lets cut to the chase. This post reported that the FBI Training Division had reevaluated which handgun round was best for FBI agents and reached the following conclusions: The 2014 FBI Training Division Report stated that the FBI had chosen the 9mm bullet (147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2) for FBI agents to carry because, The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.. My Husband Left Me After 33 Years Of Marriage, Turn 7 Liquidation Locations, Attribution Training Activities, Harris County Democratic Party Judicial Candidates, Articles OTHER