He fell drunk on the floor in his home. So Velour, I ask you to please withdraw your false statements about what we do on A Cry For Justice. Right. Serous help? But I have a lot of sympathy for his kids/family, and hope he gets help for their sakes. i think of my agnostic relatives. I am not the one who is talking about diagnosis or treatment variables. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. You asked why my specialty was. doesnt say it nearly strongly enough. They are quite different. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? We learned a lot during these years. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. Secondarily, what were the terms of his probation? I would not call this grief. No excuses for it, ever. she advises women who are VA victims to be very cautious when choosing a MHP because most MHPs are ignorant about VA. Wow. . Family and friends are welcome to leave their condolences on this memorial page and share them with the family. I found learning about that topic very helpful to me my mother was raised in a home filled with alcoholism and domestic violence). I guess human pain all has to go somewhere until it ends up at the Cross where it can be laid down so it cannot hurt anyone else. Sproul was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, as the second child of Robert Cecil Sproul, an accountant and a veteran of World War II and his wife, Mayre Ann Sproul (ne Yardis). Do they choose their friends among other heavy drinkers? I already am apostate in the SBC because I believe God gifts men and women in the sharing of Gods word. Just search his name and spiritual abuse, etc. Then, the preacher gets up and delivers a sermon with a title such as, How to Have a Successful Marriage.. I hadnt thought of it in just that way; I just knew it was um foolishness. Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. Do they look for excuses to have the equivalent of one for the road? The EMTs told me later that they were 100% certain that I would be DOA at the hospital. Because she never appeared even tipsy, few people knew her problem. Should alcoholics and drug addicts be enabled? We have to be humble to accept help, especially if you think you should be a perfect Christian. The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics helps Christians show unbelievers the truth, goodness, and beauty of the gospel as the only hope that fulfills our deepest longings. It needs to stop. My trying to save him from the pain of his choices only made things worse. This led to serious issues for the people involved. Will continue to pray for you and everyone here who are dealing with pain. It was as if there was a cry from heaven, as if Jesus heard the words God damn you, because thats what it meant to be cursed and under the anathema of the Father. accrue great personal financial gain from donors, or I even pointed out that books BY people who are MHPs themselves mention cautions to their readers to be careful when doctor shopping because, they say, some MHPs are inept or charlatans. Do they choose their friends among other heavy drinkers? Many of us have suffered tragedies. When there are cover-ups to protect the leader, whole families shunned because they dont like the church, those are certainly red flags. Thats a very hard life, to put it mildly. The record of his life, the record he created and boasted about in his own sermons and publications, the record he established boozing it up in front of his church members, proves that RC Sproul Jr has been abusing the booze for many many years prior to his personal family tragedies. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. Do they look for excuses to have the equivalent of one for the road? Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! You dont know the extent of Sproul 2s medical problems since neither of you are physicians who specialize in this. And even if they remain in their brand of the church, its a pretty poor imitation of Christianity: all surface appearance and no substance. He has used his position of authority and harmed people. I think the blood stains on that white coat might help explain that anger pretty well. Velour, is there anything in our conversation that has triggered an old experience for you? Personally, I choose to abstain, and I wish everyone wouldn't complicate their lives with it at all. youll follow his example. or an idolater, [worshiping false gods] I never laughed so hard in my life as reading that book. Hes also working with the homeless as part of our parish outreach ( i.e service to others). The church that I attend believes in using wine for communion but it also offers grape juice for those who choose not to drink it. Sproul was driving under the influence. Ill admit to being too lazy to scroll back up the page to read Barbs original comments, but I dont recall her asking for anyone to be publicly humiliated (?) This includes parishioners suffering from alcoholism, or female parishioners suffering from a desire to read scripture in public. Its just that the timeline suggests grief at the loss of his wife has something to do with why he started sinning that way. Being Married to a Pedophile: A Wife Speaks Out and Offers Hope to Other Wives ofPedophiles, Bodily Autonomy, Reproductive Rights, and the Christian Patriarchy Motion The Revealer - Olusolacoker.com, Bodily Autonomy, Reproductive Rights, and the Christian Patriarchy Movement The Revealer, Claire Roise: Oppressed and Defenseless Women within the Church, Flying Free: Help for Survivors of Emotional Abuse, Lori Anne Thompson on Clergy Sexual Misconduct. Come to think of it, Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. Velour said: Actually, yes, several people have never mentioned treatment. OK, well, Im not sure if I am in agreement with that view or not. Preach it sister! Unfortunately, I am in a lot of pain and maybe looking at surgery so I am having trouble keeping up with things. Last month, a young couple from my church was in a horrible accident just down the street from my house. . Doctor R C Sproul PhD BA BD, was the founder of Ligonier Ministries, a theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and Presbyterian pastor. None of the people I know who have left patriarchy are (so far as I know) recovering alcoholics. He was a writer, known for Calvinist (2017), The Parables of Jesus (2012) and The Gospel: 2016 National Conference (2016). The crack I heard was his leg bone splitting lengthwise down his leg. Its not your quote. I think God understands this. @ Velour: I dont remember if it was the Spinderella blog or somewhere else, but I do remember reading a comment from a former member of his church whose kid was in Sproul Jrs car when he was driving drunk, and (if Im remember right) after the kid told the parents, they never permitted their kid to ride with him again. it seems too public and intrusive for most people, I think; the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. RC Sproul passed on, aged 78 years, on 14th December 2017. That being said I think the far more important issue is figuring out some ways of keeping the public safe from him. In this particular case, RC2, there is more involved than just the alcohol issue. and drive with children while drunk! From this description, Anne was not in leadership at her church, and she was not actively hurting others in the church, or pushing alcoholic beverages on others in that church to somehow justify her own drinking. When he was stopped, the officer observed that Sproul needed support to walk, he swayed, mumbled and had a moderate smell of alcohol on his breath. Those two do not go together. People need to wake up, I agree; and TURN from these deceivers and their despicable fatalistic, man-made gospel. Good heavens! I would dearly love to avoid the aforesaid black hole, and so I wont attach this point to any particular name, but I agree with it: if indeed Mr Sprouls executive oversight of the organisation is as it has been described here, then alcohol is one more reason he needs to be removed, not just as CEO, but from membership of the organisation. And Velour, theres no need to go over the issues again. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. I grew up in a verbally abusive family, so I have been here before. (let alone applied in practice?). He took me home. We are theologically different, however, in how we view people with addictions. They didnt get to attend her wedding or hold their grandchildren. But at the age of 15, R.C. Im comfortable with my apostasy, you make being an unbeliever sound bad. May his tribe increase until we take vigorous steps to drastically change our whole culture in this matter. Sproul Jr. didn't hurt himself, his kids, or anyone else when he was operating a vehicle in an intoxicated state. RC2 has been off the rails for a long time and has been able to act outrageously under his fathers overt protection. But more often than not, we do one or the other of the following with such comments: . She said specifically this person and she specified because of his prominence. job loss). I am very familiar with alcoholism and raising the bottom on alcoholics and not enabling their behavior. Barbra said that R.C. How do you see it different from me? They dont even know anything about the treatment programs you refer to, nor will they take the time to learn. For Sproul Jr. to only get probation and no prison term must have been the result of having a good lawyer. Im not getting the disconnect going on in this thread. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). Maybe Barbara would support all that stuff is it fair to base your arguments on silence? However, she does offer us some valuable insight about RCs end game: Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. This is exactly what I suspected might happen. Are you not reading my comments to you? View pages/Spiritual-Sounding-Board/266400143480456?ref=hls profile on Facebook, View @defendthesheeps profile on Twitter, View soundingboards profile on Pinterest, BGBC Lawsuit Archive (Julie Annes lawsuit), 00 Guide to Navigating the BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Archive, 01 Court Dates and Documents, and Analysis of Allegations, 02A Narrative Account and Analysis: The Lawsuit, 02B Narrative Account and Analysis: Sidebar Issues, 03 BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Events Timeline, 04 BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Media/Blog Response Timeline, 05 Analysis/Commentary Pieces Legal, Historical, Media, Other, 06 Impact of the Case and Significance for the Future, Quotes from Readers I Dont Want to Forget, Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits and Code Words, R.C. What is that about? My guess is not because RC Jr has a long history of feigning submission for the sake of appearance. If they will listen to anyone at all it has to be someone whos been there themselves. More than that, how do you know what their drinking habits are? @ Deborah Coan: So you fully agree with what Sproul wrote in that article? The purpose of Drug court is for those charged w felonies to be submersed in a rehab program for 1-1.5yrs and graduate with the Judge being the one sharing that persons story and how he/she has been redeem and will acclimate as a reformed person in society- its a big deal. Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. Would a clergy-person uses their position to My mother couldnt believe I was home so early, lol. I have had plastic surgery three times. Its all part of that raising the bottom thing you claim to support. The only people who are likely to be able to pick up on it are other alkies. @ Friend:Yes, Please pray. I think where we differ is that I did not see Barbaras comment as a blanket endorsement of kicking all addicts/alcoholics out of every church. He was a success story. I just want to be true-blue, show him that God doesnt run away from us when we are bad. Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. However reading your narrative (and others) has given me much to think about. A couple things stood out to me: Alcoholism changes the persons brain. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. I dont think Barbara used the word excommunicate, although I do see how one could extrapolate the idea from kicked out. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). Plus I dont like the way it makes me feel. With all of that information available, and with all that superstructure that is supposed to protect people (and it would have had the people listened), he still gets hired. 3. You want to see whence my fury? Clearly. @ Deb: That is a whole different level of bad behavior. Of course people have to want sobriety for it to work. Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. Web site of Farber and Otteman Funeral Homes and Cremation Center, Sac City, Lake View, Odebolt, and Wall Lake, Iowa If he has been drinking as long as is being alleged, Sproul is at high risk of offending again. im in those environs every so often. This is a much bigger problem in the church than just R.C. I turned 13 about a month after the wreck and felt like a freak! I have friends and family who dont drink, for various reasons. How did his parents handle their sons defrocking in 2006? He had a disease. I said to her When Abby was diagnosed with her brain tumor, what I wouldnt have given for such a disease. when H.A. When the churchs reformed pastors have a worst track record than those they wish to save, it is way past time to reform their pulpits, ya think? This comment is where you brought forward Barbaras comment about the question at issue. That was a waste of time. Sproul Jr. is not qualified to keep his pastoral job. I am even more concerned about her lack of education and information about addiction, including co-addiction (i.e. I would tend to agree with her about this person, assuming that he has, as some have claimed, publicly and speaking from some position of religious prominence defended his actions. As such, faithful Instructions for Christ followers are provided should these unfortunate events occurs providing correction and certain training in righteous, that the body Christ followers would be built up properly unto the unity of the faith, unto to the glory of God Himself! Sharon Ann Sproul Sharon Ann Sproul, age 58 years, a resident of Rt. A couple from her church moved into her home and raised her. I already alluded to the fact that there is much more than the public is aware of. Sounds like a good program, IF , the Pastor is willing to complete it. It is also true that there is an even higher standard for church pastors and leaders a number of scriptures address this issue. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. Why should a pastor be held to a different standard? and putting things into strong ideas with smooth words along with the willingness to step in and do that from time to time. RC2 started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. Those that saw the issues, which were primarily with the entrepreneurial head pastor, minimized them and advised me to hang in there and focus on my small group fellowship. I am glad that Al-Anon has helped you. Thanks. She seems to be slowly but surely getting better. But to take that info and post it here? For it to happen they almost always have to have hit rock bottom. Not impossible. We have occasionally declined to publish a comment which uses the word codependent. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. Yes, she and I are in agreement on that point. On the other hand, theres nothing compelling me to take insulin. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. I then got entirely away from that direction and went into radiology. One from RC Sproul, Jr., verifying where he currently attends church. But to publicly humiliate people instead of directing them to in-patient substance treatment is wrong. What you experienced wasnt Matthew 18 church discipline. Barbara wasnt saying that RC Jr should be thrown out of the church because hes an alcoholic (although some might argue driving drunk with your kids in the car might qualify). It only cossets him in his denial. Our justice system and plea deals and the pitfalls of that could be a whole topic. This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has. If Sproul Jr is going to go dry in the culture he built or helped to build in the first place, then hes going to have to have the motivation and gumption to change that entire culture. She had lost a son to illness (Lupus) when he was eleven. This is not all that safe sometimes. And what about all of the other people in the pews who watch that go downwho have problems? Putting the focus on Sprouls alcoholism getting him into treatment, support groups, counseling, church support, etc. Theft is a crime. What you wrote, brought tears. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. I am sure that Sproul Sr. paid for that. I know this. I respectfully disagree. I say I because it was just I. His drunkenness just by itself disqualified RC2 from being a leader. I think that PaJo made an excellent comment about the differences up the thread. He was hospitalized, detoxed, and put into psychiatric care with good follow-up and today, he is not drinking and no longer has the severe symptoms. I think its the same person. are you far from there? Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Steam explosions from a pressurized system rupture are BAD. Velour wrote: There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. Sr is 100% responsible for keeping him in the pulpit, both via Ligonier conferences and through his personal influence. Sproul 2, including in keeping his job. Crickets. Perhaps on my wedding anniversary. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Sometimes, we just have bad genes because we live in a world with disease and suffering. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. Scroll down to the bottom of the post. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. From drinking, to how the non-Xtian men I know have treated women, to spending moneyI have not seen the kind of demonic pandemonium that certain Evangelicals would have us believe results when non-Xtians do anything. I thought I had addressed this issue, but apparently the post didnt enter. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. So Velour, you have now ordered JulieAnne around by telling her what she needs to do. RC2 sponsors keggers for staff in which alcohol is served to CHILDREN!! Christiane wrote: Thank you, Jeff, for sharing your story about growing up in an alcoholic family. They also seem to be very kind and generous; not manipulative, etc. He had always been so nice before, but that made me feel that I couldnt trust him. 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